Shotgun - next next test

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Total Votes : 34

Shotgun - next next test

Post by Adm on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:48 pm

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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by h8me on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:31 pm

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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Nath on Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:18 am

h8me wrote:Default
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Negative on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:53 am

Nath wrote:
h8me wrote:Default

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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by cmnndr on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:39 am

Oh for Christ sake, just make it 5 and end the story here. The polls aren't going anywhere. Big difference.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Gloom on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:48 am

0.5
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by FireBall on Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:58 am

Since - Damage 0.26, DropRadius 0.4 - was the most popular of the untested, I suppose we should try it next.

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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Nath on Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:15 pm

FireBall wrote:Since - Damage 0.26, DropRadius 0.4 - was the most popular of the untested, I suppose we should try it next.
From what I see from the results the shotgun should either be 0.4 or 0.5? As they are resoundingly voted the highest? Or am I not getting the point of a democratic vote? Neutral
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by BuLL on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:39 am

So far, yes Nath. But apparently we are not finished testing therefore the next setting with highest votes is the Damage 0.26, DropRadius 0.4.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Devil on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:06 pm

So... I was on the server tonight after a cm, and some of the players were fooling around with the Sg. So I started fooling around with it to. Thus my post here, hoping that someone can explain how can this be:

Settings were as followed:
DropRadius: 0.5
Damage: 0.21
Range: 7



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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Cinc on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Simple - shotty is op. Stop messing with drop radius and do what i said 3 months ago - adjust the damage.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by cmnndr on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:00 pm

Even with 0.4 the middle bullet still travels like 5-6 squares. It's power doesn't reside in that one bullet that goes snipe so the above poster talks bullshit. It's power lies in the 2 square range around the muzzle so increasing it's damage would make it overpowered.
The real problem is in the SG's design. If you want a little more spread than the fimotic 0.4 dr one, you get longer range, if you don't want snipe range you get narrow spread. It is obvious why long range is bad, but why is narrow spread bad? Simple, SG's advantage is that it can kill with one shot. Now the narrower the spread the harder is to own with the weapon. The ideal setting for SG would be, IMO, a 0.5 dr spread, as you can see in Devil's ss and a 0.4 range with 0.2 damage per bullet. The range could be even shorter since 0.4 goes like I said 5-6 even more. But that's impossible. Why? Because the game is a shit and CUBO is dead.

All in all, you are pussies and are affraid of a slightly better SG. And yes I am talking about all you SMG players and you SNIPE fagotrons.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Cinc on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:24 pm

varlan wrote: It is obvious why long range is bad, but why is narrow spread bad? Simple, SG's advantage is that it can kill with one shot. Now the narrower the spread the harder is to own with the weapon. The ideal setting for SG would be, IMO, a 0.5 dr spread, as you can see in Devil's ss and a 0.4 range with 0.2 damage per bullet.

Narrow spread = IF you hit anyone at small ranges, even 2 or 3, it's a kill. Spread any wider than the current and you would be able to kill only people on range 1, while hitting max 2 bullets on anyone at range 2 or 3. Besides, drop radius is like a randomizer multiplier to be combined with range. Increasing it doesn't increase the spread as much as it makes all bullet go a random distance further from their given range. This has practically no effect on close bullets, but 3 bullets that go far go even further, while the randomness of the spread can cause all 3 to go very close to each other, producing a 0.4 or 0.6 damage output on ranges 2 to 3, maybe even 4.

So, simply said if you don't understand it, drop radius makes the spread wider at the base of the sg, with better damage output at higher ranges. Why does this suck? Because it turns the shotty into some hunting rifle that uses shells... that is not a shotgun. Purpose of the sg was simple - deal destructive damage at close range while being useless at ranges 2.5+. What you are trying to do is make this weapon destructive at a longer range while still keeping the advantage on shorter range, and that is called overpowering^2. Besides, not all weapons are for universal purposes. A sniper can hardly be used on Brutus, and a shotty can barely do anything on a map like CTF-Plaza in a 4v4 match. You are just complaining about smgs because it's a great all-round weapon, much like DMG, cg and photon. Shotgun is to be used for something like defense on narrow-bases maps like Cornered, Rawr, Bites, Numb etc. You are trying to make it an assault weapon so you can have the same way of playing in a 12-player dm on pong and in a 3v3 match on rawr, which defies all way of logic. If you ever watched dad0, Edgar or Yao play defense with old shotty on a 3v3 map, you'd realize that it's range was perfect, although I have to say I wasn't completely happy with the damage, so I still say it should be increased a little.

Btw "mr. above poster", sucking with smg and sniper doesn't give you an excuse to be an smartass and propagate your newfound easy way of playing by insulting others. Well, at least you tried to make some rational arguments, but you can see from my post that I just multiplied their argumental values all by zero. Ha-ha.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by FireBall on Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:38 pm

Leaving all speculations aside. I've trained with this weapon and used it in cms and I've used 0.4 shotty on pubs to have a direct comparison. Some players have tried to use shotty against me and found that they cannot just pick it up and be as good. My opinion is that 0.5 is good but I am curious how the other settings will work.

Here's another thing. Most of those who want shotty back to 0.4 don't really know what the weapon is like with that setting, apart from the fact that it's clearly not as much a threat as most other weapons. Some said "0.4 is fine, you just didn't try hard enough to master it", like they would have a clue.

Here are the facts. With 0.4 DR, in close range, in most cases it takes AT LEAST 2 shots to take down an opponent. You say that shotty's greatest advantage is the 1 shot kill. Please tell me how many 1 shot kills have you seen in cms with 0.4 DR. You say shotty should be strong in close range. With 0.4 DR you cannot kill your opponent with a 1 shot kill unless it is at point blank range. I suppose people can tell the difference between short and point blank range. So where is that uber shotty advantage? Point blank range? I suppose shotty users should learn to sneak up on their opponents, in a top view game of course Wink. I think that the arguments against 0.65 and 0.6 DR were perfectly valid, but you people are using the same arguments with 0.5 range. I seems to me that you will accept nothing more than 0.4 range. At this point saying that 0.5 DR is overpowered is absurd. Even you people who initially said that 0.4 makes shotty weak and then changed your minds when u saw it at 0.65/0.6, do you think that from 0.4 (weak) to 0.5 it becomes overpowered? That is just nonsense and you damn well know it Smile.

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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by cmnndr on Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:05 pm

FireBall wrote:Leaving all speculations aside. I've trained with this weapon and used it in cms and I've used 0.4 shotty on pubs to have a direct comparison. Some players have tried to use shotty against me and found that they cannot just pick it up and be as good. My opinion is that 0.5 is good but I am curious how the other settings will work.

Here's another thing. Most of those who want shotty back to 0.4 don't really know what the weapon is like with that setting, apart from the fact that it's clearly not as much a threat as most other weapons. Some said "0.4 is fine, you just didn't try hard enough to master it", like they would have a clue.

Here are the facts. With 0.4 DR, in close range, in most cases it takes AT LEAST 2 shots to take down an opponent. You say that shotty's greatest advantage is the 1 shot kill. Please tell me how many 1 shot kills have you seen in cms with 0.4 DR. You say shotty should be strong in close range. With 0.4 DR you cannot kill your opponent with a 1 shot kill unless it is at point blank range. I suppose people can tell the difference between short and point blank range. So where is that uber shotty advantage? Point blank range? I suppose shotty users should learn to sneak up on their opponents, in a top view game of course Wink. I think that the arguments against 0.65 and 0.6 DR were perfectly valid, but you people are using the same arguments with 0.5 range. I seems to me that you will accept nothing more than 0.4 range. At this point saying that 0.5 DR is overpowered is absurd. Even you people who initially said that 0.4 makes shotty weak and then changed your minds when u saw it at 0.65/0.6, do you think that from 0.4 (weak) to 0.5 it becomes overpowered? That is just nonsense and you damn well know it Smile.

Ye Suspect *cough cough* that's what I was saying. Razz
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:29 am

FireBall wrote:Please tell me how many 1 shot kills have you seen in cms with 0.4 DR.

I remember dado could take anyone with 1 or 2 shots when he defended, and he'd always have stats like 30-15.

Btw, you can't compare yourself who plays for 1 month and someone who plays sg for 4 years, but unfortunately those who played it that long are gone. So now you are trying to make up for those 3 years 11 months of skill by overpowering the shotty. I say no. Lower the drop radius, increase the damage.

Play for a year, say it sucks and I might just take your arguments as acceptable.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Adm on Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:14 am

Cinc wrote:

I remember dado could take anyone with 1 or 2 shots when he defended, and he'd always have stats like 30-15.

All this sounds nice but how much of it is true? If it really is, the attackers had to suck a lot

Cinc wrote:

Btw, you can't compare yourself who plays for 1 month and someone who plays sg for 4 years, but unfortunately those who played it that long are gone.

Fire played it for longer than this



Anyways, I found the 0.5 settings great, you just have to fight it different than an smger
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Geronimo on Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:05 am

Admiral Thrawn wrote:you just have to fight it different than an smger

this applies for original setting also ... ^^

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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Devil on Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:05 am

Lol, ok, Dad0 was good but I don't remember him being the god-all-mighty-sg-player you make him to be even on maps such as Corn. So I don't know vs who were you guys playing xD

Anyway, 0.5 DropRadius seems fine to me, but something is wrong in the above pictures if that's what it means to have 0.5. The range of the middle bullet is unacceptable for a sg and it's op. Mind that the squares on my babo theme floor are not normal squares so don't measure it by that. In normal babo squares, with the sg above, you'll be fried at 4-5 babo squares distance (since 3 of the bullets cover that distance, and the middle one covers more than half of a 4v4 map).
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:39 am

What you remember is dad0 from this year, where he played once a month and still kicked ass. In the old days, some 1.5 years ago, with dad0 on defense in cornered, we could win like 5-0 against NbZ, midnight, etc,etc and lose 7-1 on two other maps when dado would go to attack. And yes, I have plenty of screenshots with cms like that. So, back to what I said, with sg you need to totally change your tactics and the way of playing.

@Admi first sg test started like 1.5 months ago, so max time Fireball could be playing with it is around 2 months. That leaves 10 more months before he can say "I played with sg, got good with it, and I think it's underpowered".
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by cmnndr on Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:09 am

I see the range was set to seven. If that one bullet is so bothering then reduce the range. Uap uap.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:36 am

I tried to do some mathematics about the range and average damage output dependent on range and drop radius, so I fooled around with sg on my server, checked the official rndlabs variable explanation and so on.


Result - shotgun is either bugged or someone messed with variables on all euro servers.
This is what it's supposed to be like, according to official variables explanation (tested on my server with the settings dev mentioned in his posts):


Instead, we have this (tested on rs1):



Something's not right
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by h8me on Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:55 am

Cinc wrote:I tried to do some mathematics about the range and average damage output dependent on range and drop radius, so I fooled around with sg on my server, checked the official rndlabs variable explanation and so on.


Result - shotgun is either bugged or someone messed with variables on all euro servers.
This is what it's supposed to be like, according to official variables explanation (tested on my server with the settings dev mentioned in his posts):


Instead, we have this (tested on rs1):



Something's not right

Look in the config for your server. I bet it's set to "servertype 0" and that's why you get that screen. Fact of the matter is that all the servers, RS1 included, use "servertype 1" as a variable and hence the "set sv_shottyrange" has no effect at all on the settings you make on them.
Setting "servertype 0" will enable you to use the shottyrange variable which is normally set to 7, 7 being the distance the middle shot travels (the longest flying pellet). With "servertype 1" the variables don't apply in the same way. It's all well and good that everyone want's to mess with the shotty but maybe getting to grips with what affects the variables of the config would be a good idea before posting too many screens. Go test it on any of my servers and you'll have a different screenshot. Variables there are 7/0.4/0.21, servertype 0

Edit: Didn't mention the servertype before as it just gives more shit to mess around with. Still voting 0.4 for what it's worth


Last edited by h8me on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:24 am

Ok, used servertype 1, tested it.

From what i was able to deduce, although I can't be certain without looking at babo code, is that minimum range of the furthest bullet is about 3*dropradius*range, while the shortest bullets simply have dropradius*range as their minimum range. Ofc, this simply means that changing the dropradius by 0.1 results in average bullet range increased by 7*0.1 = 0.7 for the shortest, 2*7*0.1 = 1.4 for the 2nd and 3*7*0.1 = 2.1 for the longest bullet, which makes the average of bullet range increased by (2*0.7 + 2*1.4 + 2.1)/5 = 1.26 for increasing dropradius by just 0.1, but I may be wrong.
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Re: Shotgun - next next test

Post by h8me on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:55 am

Nah, servertype 0: devide range by 3 and that's it. So range 7 gives you 2.33, 4.66 and 7... more or less. Range 12 would give 4, 8, 12
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