Chain Gun test period

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Cg with 0.14 damage?

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Total Votes : 26

Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:06 am

Lately couple of people were complaining about the damage if the chain gun, so today admi suggested trying out some different damages in schoolies. We tested the 0.14 damage setting, which seemed okay but ofc we can't know without some more tests and without people specialized in cg playing.

To sum up: cg damage will be 0.14 on rs1 for two weeks, and people are encouraged to play with it, post feedback and vote. Don't vote before you played with it and just post "don't change anything blahblahblah" when you've never played either old cg or the new one.

P.S. Despite the popular demand, this poll doesn't have the "Fudge you Cinc" option ;)
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by cmnndr on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:18 am

Stop this. Stop changing weapons. Stop woosies. I'd elaborate this post but to no avail. Most people compare the rest of the weapons with SMG which seem to be the benchmark in the op/up issue. I don't believe weapons should be ballanced dmg wise or rof wise. They are fine the way they are. Maybe photon is op but far too less people use it in cms for it to bother some. I don't defend keeping cg weap specs the way they are just because one of our defender is using it but if anything is changed to it the feel you get when playing with it woun't be of a cg but a dull smg/cg hybrid.

N.B. I actually started using cg for some days before this whole issue. I know the feel of it before and I played some schoolies with 0.14. The difference on the ballance sheet is not much. Just one bullet more to kill a full hp babo. The feeling on the other hand....
Just get over it and act like the pros that you pretend to be and stop ruining all weapons.
Maybe you'll come up with past quotes of myself arguing for changing this and that, keeping this and that, but imo it's gone too far.
In most players' eyes I'm not pro, yet I don't mind, AT LEAST, to play against any other weapon. Is cg at 0.16 op? USE IT! Train your defenders to use it and pwn. You'll then see how much bs you are spreading all over... Ofc, its easier to downgrade something that raises some challenge to your gameplay instead of trying to do better.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Claymore on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:24 am

I don't mind about any change, but fix the other weapon too. Dmg should got a nerf too imo, if you decide to nerf the cg.

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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Adm on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:26 am

damn cinc I meant you should make a poll about a test period.. not about the final decision Razz
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:41 am

Admiral Thrawn wrote:damn cinc I meant you should make a poll about a test period.. not about the final decision Razz

Hey, I wrote exactly what you said Razz
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Adm on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:45 am

Cinc wrote:
Admiral Thrawn wrote:damn cinc I meant you should make a poll about a test period.. not about the final decision Razz

Hey, I wrote exactly what you said Razz

no :0 I said, poll question - Want a test period for gaygun?
options - yes; no
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:46 am

As I said before, I don't care.

But damn, now I'm waiting for DMG and Photon nerf. And, I bet, if no one will stop you, you'll start second nerf cycle. You probably regret that there are no "sv_knivesDamage" and "sv_shieldProtection" settings I just wet myself


Last edited by ketamine on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:49 am

Admiral Thrawn wrote:no :0 I said, poll question - Want a test period for gaygun?
options - yes; no

I clearly remember you not saying anything about the poll question, only saying there should be yes and no. That's why when I asked if cg is gonna be 0.14 for two weeks I assumed that this is the kind of poll you wanted Razz

EDIT: You could just make a different server the one for test, or maybe shorten the test period
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Adm on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:20 am

I didnt go into such details but thats what I meant XD
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by RuBeLL on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:30 am

CG damage is good already in its default value.
Kickback is what makes it OP, and imo it's what should be nerfed.

My cent.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:32 am

Let me turn the attention to one issue that is constantly bugging our dear ketamine:

ketamine wrote:But damn, now I'm waiting for DMG and Photon nerf. And, I bet, if no one will stop you, you'll start second nerf cycle. You probably regret that there are no "sv_knivesDamage" and "sv_shieldProtection" settings I just wet myself

Babo progression isn't linear nor equal. 2 years ago, people with great skills had a good balance with current weapon settings. But the gameplay is constantly improving, and not equally in every aspect. 2 years ago it was quite impossible for example to see over 60 damage done in cms with smg, let alone with sniper or any other weapon. But what happened? Gaining skill with smg also improved your overall aim, and in that manner, feats impossible with cg or any weapons we deem as overpowered now became possible. Back in the days, few ppl could handle cg's spread but not because it was out of control, it's because average babo aim was on a much inferior level. On the other hand, for some weapons like sg it's a bad thing, because sg's peak imo can be reached with less aim than smg, so it could use a bit powering up but not in the way of previous polls. Only thing we can use for benchmarking is the smg, simply because it is the most played, most balanced weapon and the only real tracker of how far babo is progressing.

As our skills are dynamic, we should be dynamic too, and that's the sole purpose of "nerfing".
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:54 am

My dear Cinc, sorry, but you are talking shit. Again.

Your weapon benchmarking is same thing as speedtests in some funny thread here. You benchmark *nothing*. No one explained, how you decided that CG is OP? How that was benchmarked? You lost in 5 CMs in a row against CG def? If you need to nerf some weapon's damage, it more says that overall skill level is grown, while yours is not.

Weapons can't be balanced against some "ideal weapon", for which you've chose SMG. SMG is all-range weapon, CG is not, its bullets spread in much wider angle, it has much stronger recoil, etc, etc. It's different weapons. If only every weapon has recoil, bullet spread and fire rate settings, tweaking would be possible. You *can not* tweak balance fairly operating only damage value. By nerfing damage you are just disbalancing the game, smoothly coming nearer to SMG-only game (again).

Moreover, from now I can't see any point in ladder ranking system (new or old) because of different game settings on different servers. I know, not much people care about ladder, but I did.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:22 pm

As your signature points out, what makes it op is the fact that most ppl think it's op ;]
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by cmnndr on Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:35 pm

Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Cinc wrote:
Admiral Thrawn wrote:damn cinc I meant you should make a poll about a test period.. not about the final decision Razz

Hey, I wrote exactly what you said Razz

no :0 I said, poll question - Want a test period for gaygun?
options - yes; no

That's what he said
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by RuBeLL on Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:43 pm

ketamine wrote:how you decided that CG is OP?
It allows u to stand on the ground, shooting like a turret.
Old kickback should be restored in order to keep it balanced.

My cent.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by cmnndr on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:02 pm

Standing still -> sitting duck

How is that op?
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:24 pm

Cinc wrote:As your signature points out, what makes it op is the fact that most ppl think it's op ;]
As my signature points out, 1 (one) player think it's OP. As voting results point out, there are, as of 01:06 26th August 2011 MSK, 5 (five) people think it should be nerfed to 0.14, and 2 (two) people think it should be nerfed to some different setting. Let's count them as different people, that will be 8 (eight) people (I hope you already voted? I didn't, by the way).

According to ladder web-server statistics, there was 1468 (one thousand four hundred sixty eight) unique visits on ladder during previous month. Let's think that almost 500 of them was game servers and search engines (actually, that's not true).

Well, 8 of 1000 people thinks that CG is OP. Enough said. Next argument, please.

And, please please don't forget to answer "How that was benchmarked?" question also (you said about benchmarking, not me). You may google for meaning of "benchmark" word, if you (or me?) doesn't fully understand what it means.

RuBeLL wrote:Old kickback should be restored in order to keep it balanced.
Sadly, that's can't be restored. All game logics in babo is client-side, server just sends its settings to client on round start. So CG recoil can't be restored without patching. Well, I can make patched client, which will feature bigger recoil. Who can guarantee that everyone will update? OK, I can make patch for Windows version of server, which will allow only updated clients. Who will update his server? Even more, there are many servers on Linux, but I have no Linux reverse-enginering skills. Who has?

As Varlan kindly pointed out, ability to stand still isn't making CG really OP. FT has no recoil at all, and no one says that it making it OP. Every weapon is unique and have good and bad sides. You already nerfed some of weapons, which was resulted in different server settings. Again, that making statistics collection (and, moreover, any ranking players calculations) meaningless. Please, just let things be as it is, leave weapon settings that already became standard, more or less, and play more. Paraphrasing the "Fundamentals of chess", the only way to get stronger is by playing a stronger opponent. Don't try to find easier way.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Frosty on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:00 pm

My post is exclusively about the reasons why I personally think that we should not modify any weapon anymore.









varlan wrote:Stop this. Stop changing weapons. Stop woosies. I'd elaborate this post but to no avail. Most people compare the rest of the weapons with SMG which seem to be the benchmark in the op/up issue. I don't believe weapons should be ballanced dmg wise or rof wise. They are fine the way they are. Maybe photon is op but far too less people use it in cms for it to bother some.

[...]

Stop changing weapons. Ask cnik and other babo designers why they made the game the way it was, he is something approaching a game conceptor, we AREN'T tongue tongue

peace I love you

Some weapons kill moar in some situations. But they have other disadvantages, and even though every single weapon, EXCEPT SMG, has already been the subject of arguments about the power of the weapon (even sniper), I still see the best ratios, the biggest amount of kills, the more flags captured, the less deaths, on the scoreboards of SMG players.

And 90+% of babo community concerned on this forum, on real squads, in clans and on taking decisions about this game's settings uses SMG as primary weapon.
'Cause it simply is the most polyvalent for cm's and schoolies, whatever other weapon's damages, rate of fire, and kickbacks...
And people registered on this forum only care about the final weapon settings used to play cm's and schoolies.

Look at the past.

Sg got changed, changed, re-changed, re-re-rechanged, and finally, everything is more or less like it was at the start.
Still powerful in crowded DM maps and CTF servers, but used in cm by 1 player among the whole community : Ya˘. Other users are occasional, and/or losing the cm's.

DMG's damages got changed too someday, Crapper said it was 0.13 on RS, but 0.14 on other servers.
Maybe I'm wrong and I dont remember well what he said Razz , I hope I'm wrong and idiot Very Happy, cause having different settings on private and public servers is idiot =D
Training on pubs with DMG is useless then >.>


As for CG, I agree it's annoying to play vs it, but cm's are exactly the same as before, when nobody was taking it. Not harder to win vs CG. Ur ratio suffers a bit ? Could be, but you still cap as much flags... Or get pwned by as much flags captured by your opponents Razz

And about FT expiration rates, damages and ranges... What a mess, how many changes, to get the same thing as before : Ulisses uses it, sometimes BlackBurn, once a year sashimi, end.

Now there's also zooka damages and use of remote.
Now that Luna's inactive and that nobody zooks anymore, except Riku in schoolies, nobody talks about it anymore.



Now what ?
O ! I talked about all the weapons already. Except photon... but wait, in game people talked about changing it, and so did varlan in the quotation above !

Probably the next on this bloody surgery table, after CG.

Watch out, bv2's health is in danger !







But that's just my opinion What a Face
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Devil on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:22 pm

Keta, I don't know if you play any cms (well, personally I haven't seen you play, but then again you might play on different servers or at different hours) but most of the weapon changes have been suggested because of cms.

Lets take the casual cm which consists of 3v3 so it's played on a 3v3 map. On a map like this the current CG is too strong. It takes 6 bullets to kill a full health babo, 3 bullets to kill one that has half HP. By using gunside which is practically available on perhaps 90% of the maps a CG user has little problems in defending because of the damage output, not to mention that the bullets pretty much reach the other side of the map, so it makes it a mid-range weapon like SMG. Even without using gunside, in open space, an SMG player needs to dodge like hell while the CG only needs to stand still and shoot having near perfect accuracy. If both hit all the shots on target, CG wins, in fact, it takes almost double the time for an Smg-er to kill a CG-er than vice-versa. And here I'm talking about an experienced Smg-er who has played Smg for quite a while vs a CG-er who picked this weapon 2 weeks ago.

The stronger kickback of the oldtime CG didn't have this problem because it wouldn't really allow a player to be able to stand still in the middle of the field and shoot, thus making it more difficult for it to aim at moving targets. But with smaller recoil, this is not the case.

I've no problem with people that have been playing CG before, like Rata or Link because they were good even with the old CG. But when people start favoring CG instead of their usual SMG, I think it says something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for diversity and I wish even more players would play with other weapons than SMG, but at the moment CG does seem to be a bit overpowered.

It hasn't become a big problem yet, because not that many players are using it, although lately I've seen an increase in the number of players that use it, so I just hope it doesn't get to the point where in order to win a cm people (or at least defence) will change to CG just because it's better.

I like challenges and playing vs the old SG when it was OP was certainly a challenge.
Sometimes it is hard to draw the line between a weapon that is OP and a weapon that only seems to be OP because it has been used more recently and there isn't much experience about how to fight it - yes, this might even be the case here.


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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by cmnndr on Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:37 pm

Like I said (Dev, we'll get to talk on two threads about the same thing Smile) so I'll just post here, though I didn't read what you wrote on the other one)(yet) USE CG if it's so op and easy to play with. Use cg, make it the new smg if it's the new smg. The fact of the matter is that "pros" in general don't know how to fight against cg. If they knew it wouldn't be so overpowered. This thread is making me laugh and cry at the same time.

Oh and Devil, we aren't changing cg just for 3v3 matches alright? It will be changed everywhere for everyplayer. Somebody bring Usul or Sufit here. HECK! Bring Anya here! I want to hear their opinion too. They've been playing cg since I play babo. And by the way of thought But when people start favoring CG instead of their usual SMG, I think it says something. if Anya takes smg and I pwn her, does that make smg underpowered? And let me tell you Sufit plays with smg as good as he does with cg. Oxy too. Me too. Smile) The differences are subtle. Thrawn for example, I bet that he can be pro with any weap he chooses if he plays 2 weeks daily with it like you said. All your arguments are invalid. (all being the people who vote for nerf)
Oh, not wait, one is true. All of the above will turn to SMG after 3 cms played. GUARANTEED! Maybe not Oxy, he has a pact. Now you tell me which is op?
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Devil on Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:27 pm

Actually the settings can be changed only on Rs1 since Imo it should only regard the cms. There was a time when Rs1 had different settings than pubs and things were okay, I'm not sure if the settings are still different or not.

I know Anya pretty well, you know, since she was in the same clan as I was and all, and she is an all around player, however in cms she used SMG, SG or Photon (at least the cms I played with her)
I don't think that either Sufit or Oxy play as good with smg as with cg, at least from playing with them/against them that's not what I've noticed.

I do however consider the option that I might not be used to playing against CG, though I've played against the old CG in cms and it wasn't the same as it is now. But you cannot stand and affirm that most of the Pr0s in babo don't know how to play a certain weapon. First of all your understanding of Pr0 might be different than mine and the rest xD and secondly I don't think that's right.

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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:31 pm

Since I'm too drunk and too bored to write a long post, lemme just give small answers:

@ketamine: and how many of these 1000 ppl played cms and schoolies? I think you don't need all your body fingers to count them. And let's face it, babo IS centered around those and that's what we're aiming to improve. Pubs are just a place to practice for serious matches.

@frosty: cg's only current weakness is immobility, but then again it's totally map&player dependent. Also, the greatest damage I've seen done in a cm last 6 months was with cg and it was around 70 (a bit less), while the closest was 66 done with smg (I will put screens of those tomorrow), and when i say they're the greatest there's a huge chance they actually are because I'm present for most cms of every clan.


EDIT: Couldn't find the screens but admi surely remembers my "quality over quantity" speech ;]
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by RuBeLL on Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:14 am

ketamine wrote:FT has no recoil at all, and no one says that it making it OP.
FT "bullets" don't reach the other side of the map.
Please think before posting.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Anette on Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:16 am

Frosty wrote:DMG's damages got changed too someday, Crapper said it was 0.13 on RS, but 0.14 on other servers.
Maybe I'm wrong and I dont remember well what he said Razz , I hope I'm wrong and idiot Very Happy, cause having different settings on private and public servers is idiot =D
DMG was 14 on RS and 13 as default but it got changed on RS so it was the same.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:48 am

RuBeLL wrote:FT "bullets" don't reach the other side of the map.
Please think before posting.
Have you read the rest of my message before posting or just trying to bite me where you can?

Cinc wrote:@ketamine: and how many of these 1000 ppl played cms and schoolies? I think you don't need all your body fingers to count them. And let's face it, babo IS centered around those and that's what we're aiming to improve. Pubs are just a place to practice for serious matches.
According to stats, at least 60 of them are play on RS1 (well, 10 of 60 isn't majority too). And let's face it, having different settings on pubs and squads is just stupid. You choose weapon, you play, you grow, then come to the place-for-really-serious-guys and - surprise! - your skills is nothing, because settings are different. Meh.


Last edited by ketamine on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Hey, stop editing my posts :()
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