Chain Gun test period

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Cg with 0.14 damage?

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Total Votes : 26

Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by cmnndr on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:19 pm

Devil you didn't understand my drift.

#1. RS

I say: more than 90% of the players use SMG in cm's -> it's OP (damage+range+freedom of movement+spread+etc.) in comparison with other weapons

You say: less than 4 people use CG in cm's -> it's OP (damage+range+freedom of movement+spread+etc.) in comparison with other weapons

#2. Public

There are few who use this weapon, but this shouldn't matter, because all of the ones who are pro change state: I can't stand when a noob on pub owns me with this gun. I am a pro. I play and I win. I have clan. How can this be? Fershure it's OP. Let's change it!
What does this mean? Mostlikely "the pro" underestimated "the noob", therefore he went soft on him, didn't move like he usually does against another "pro" and so on. It has nothing to do with the weapon and it's specs. Move on!

It is not me who is ridiculous in his claims.

p.s. I was speaking in general and if you felt targeted by what I said it's not my problem sorry.

p.p.s. I, Varlan, declare myself the weakest babo who is curently playing competitively and I, Varlan, fully endorse leaving CG unchanged and challenge all "pros" and overpower me.

If we have another vote for this sharade it will be most shameful.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:35 pm

Let me end varlan's argument once and for all.

Power of the weapon can't be determined by how many players play with it. We all know that probably the greatest threat to the enemy team is a good sniper. Look at admi for example. Now how many snipers are currently active in competitive babo? 3. And how much more do you see on pubs? Occasional 1 or 2.

Then how can the power of a weapon be determined? By playing against a skilled player who knows how to handle the weapon. I've seen babo's greatest smg attackers (nega, grend, blubi, soda, neo, dev) fall in front of oxy when he was in jokers, and he wouldn't lose even half hp. If you look at that, and the average results with cg compared to average results with smg (and I'm talking about the average of all players who play it), you'll clearly realize cg is much stronger. Same could be said for some other weapons, but I don't wanna digress from the topic.

Also another thing, varlan. Have you ever played against a serious cg? I bet you have, and you were frustrated because you couldn't do apeshit. But the problem is that your stubborness and pure malevolence exceeds your will to stay away from a discussion in which you have nothing worth to contribute. If for some reason you never played against a serious cg, then again, wtf are you doing here?

I rest my case.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by stelistu on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:21 pm

@ dev , this isn't comunism . u can't make ppl change it if they don't want...i won't for example , i like the old version.

@ cinc , no offense dude but ur like a plague, as soon as u get an idea u start talkin to some ppl till they actually believe u...like u said , why nerf cg when there are 3-4 players out there? if everybody was a cg i bet u would'v said "let's nerf smg"...and why are u talkin about oxy here? cause he could kill all players and not get owned like u? yes he can, i've played with him and i know his weak maps and his strong ones...every weapon has some maps that is not good on , maybe except smg...
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Anette on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:09 am

Devil wrote:My idea is:
Since Keta has been working on the 2nd Prozac mod, perhaps after he is done we can make everyone update their babo to the client that the mod has, this way everyone will be standing on equal grounds in terms of weapon settings and it will be easier to discuss any future modifications.
So... I wonder if this would be possible. What do you guys think?
You cannot do this. He can make a new client, but you cannot force people to change theirs also. If he makes a client that works like the original ones (with the cg recoil) you can encourage people on this forum (which is the main focus) to use that one instead of the one with no recoil. But there is a chance those people would prefer the no recoil for obvious reasons, and that is their choice.

Cinc wrote:And like i said, priority is to balance out rs, not the pubs.
But you also hear people saying settings should be same both on pub as on rs otherwise it is useless to train on pub. I am just worried people here only think of the people on this forum who use this user-created client and not all the people who play pub with the original.

I am sorry if something else was directed at me, but I didn't read much of the posts since it's mostly just personal jibber-jabber Smile

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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:07 am

stelistu wrote:...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Wikipedia wrote:An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it.

The truth here being that cg is op. Like I said, most ppl who voted no here, including you steli, never even bothered to spare a day to play with cg, in a schooly or cm. Then you ask me, why aren't more people playing cg? First of all, read my response to varlan. Second, like anette said, some people still use the old client, where I could say cg is even a bit underpowered. And yet I've seen more and more players use it on pubs. In fact, if you would look at the pub structure without "pro" players, you would find that smg is a huge minority.

Like we'd say in Croatia, your argument can't hold any water, so why bother to post here unless your sole reason was to attack me personally?
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by fiby on Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:09 am

so what can we do? a 3rd client?

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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:56 am

Oh look, Cinc learned something from our last conversation! He now knows about Ad Hominem.

But hey, Cinc. Please, read this topic, from start to end. You keep repeating CGISOP, but The Majority, to whom you like to appeal, already said NO several times. Why you repeating it more and more? You used this tactics in your previous game tuning attempts, and they were successful, but this is failed. Take this like a man and try to live with it, or this topic will continue with "fudge you Cinc" and nothing more.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:17 am

As far as my math goes, 45 percent isn't a majority. Besides, I fail to hear any arguments about how cg should be kept the same which I haven't nullified already. Feel free to "fudge" me.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:20 am

Well, your math is good, but attempt is failed. By the way, you said that you're not interested in pubs, but in RS only, so if you want server where only you will keep any settings you want, I can give you one for free.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:49 am

Don't twist my words. I said balancing rs is a priority, not that I'm not interested in pubs.

However, I'm curious about one thing. You have nothing to do with euro servers, keta. So why are you trying to use your "influence" in babo to give an opinion on things that don't matter to you? I play on american servers more than you do on european yet I never complained about their range 5 ft, 2 sec nuke and stuff like that.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:52 am

Ad Hominem? Wink

Well, such things are matter to me. And I'll tell you why.

Strictly speaking, Ameriсan and Russian communities are more dead than alive, so basically, I mostly live here. You may like my presence or not, but no one asked me to go out (you can make poll about that). I don't know how you tracking how often I play on euro servers. I'm playing (or at least joining) almost every day, several times while at work (I have so much spare time!), and several hours while at home (if my wife doesn't start to talking about "this freaking game which eats all your free time"). Maybe you don't know about my presence because I'm using several nicknames, including Unnamed Babo. And from early summer, I'm mostly playing on European servers, including RS1. That even forced me to switch from zooka to smg/cg/photon, because my connection isn't good enough for zooka remote control.

Actually, I'm not part of any particular community, Russian nor European. But I'm running Russian servers, Russian community website, Ladder website and archive, and doing some work on babo client and server, as you may already know. Also recently I've joined admin team on KingJ's Standouthost Germany and UK servers. So yes, I'm influenced enough. It may look that I'm very proud, but it's not true, I'm not the one who will ask "what YOU did for babo?!!11". I just love the game and want to make it life longer.

Something you may not know, is that I developing something that will replace current ladder, but will be more than just rating (I've referred it several times here and there on the forum). So that's why I'm so bothered about unified weapon settings. My first reason is statistics. You can't count fair stats and calculate any ratings if settings are different on different servers you'll get much lower score, if your favourite SMG will be set to 0.8, isn't it?. American and Russian communities just not thought about weapon settings (at least doesn't did that in the last year), but European does, mostly by your efforts (yes, I know, that it's just because only you have no fear to stand against people like me). Moreover, as already mentioned in this thread, having different settings for public and squad servers is stupid and disappoints new players. And, as I said before many times, current settings are almost perfect (look, I no longer worry about nerfed zooka because I've switched to another weapon! btw, does anyone use zooka in CMs nowadays?), and you can't make them better by tuning damage. You can't balance gun that have not so huge recoil as you want by lowering its damage.

Have I said enough to prevent next Ad Hominem question to me?


Last edited by ketamine on Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:42 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by stelistu on Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:41 am

no cinc i don't have anything with u , i just say what i see Wink
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by h8me on Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:37 am

Cinc wrote:which I haven't nullified already. Feel free to "fudge" me.
Doesn't matter what people post you'll nullify the argument. Simple argument, get better, change your tactics or learn to use a new weapon, I don't see the point in nerfing a weapon when players have put in time to master it. There are a few good cg players and if you try using other weapons you might succeed in killing them. I bet Adm can snipe a walling cg or Rep can photon it and after that it doesn't take that many bullets from an smg to kill that opponent.
Also, it's hard to win against a cg if you try walling against him/her but seeing as that's how many of the kills are made now, I can see that cg has an advantage (feel free to jump on that statement and nullify everything else as you undoubtfully will) but I say f|_|ck your nullification.
Ofc as stated by others, everything is measured against smg and seeing as it's a "jack of all trade, master of none" it doesn't have the specialization that most other weapons have so leave it as it is, a weapon you specialize in (just like ft or snip) and get good at.
As for the old cg being uncontrollable, ask Calexus, he was exceptionally good with it back in the days.
About ketas interference, I'd like to see eu players accept a cm on a russian server. They come here for cms, not the other way around.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:54 am

h8me wrote: I don't see the point in nerfing a weapon when players have put in time to master it.

Thank you crapper. Wanna compare the time admi has put into mastering sniper, time nega has put into mastering smg, time dado has put into mastering sg with for example oxy mastering cg?

I can tell you EXACTLY how long it took oxy to become the currently best cg in eu, and more useful in the clan than me, who by that time was playing 2 years - november 8th = oxy leaves >?< and goes to Out, starts playing cg; march 1st = oxy returns to jokers, and he's mastering cg. That's a bit less than 5 months. And before he started playing cg, he was playing for about 5 months.
Don't even make me start about ppl who could own with it after just a couple of matches like Kai, Admi, Clay or even Bull.

Also, it came to my mind now that I remember Anette playing cg a long time ago (over 2 years) in ins (idk if she played it in cms), it was the old cg and she always did pretty good. So I guess we can say that the old cg was balanced and not underpowered. Even you are claiming so. Then how does absolutely no recoil while moving diagonal and same damage like before make it equally balanced? It doesn't. It's op.

EDIT: @Ketamine: ok, statistics. Let's talk about statistics. Let's talk for example about the ladder (which now imo is a total nonsense regarding anything, as the current one is based on how much time you spend on babo, with rare exceptions). We all know there are people who like having their stats high and stuff like that. And let me ask you one thing, who will have a greater score at any ladder? Players who spend their entire career on an american pub with 10 players where there are 3 players who can actually kill you, or a player who spends his entire time on rs1 playing against clans that grind him with the ground, but he's still 10 times better than the american one?

Ratings are not a sign of anything, and if you'd sacrifice fair matches for your own pleasure (ok, maybe not pleasure, more like an experiment) then ask yourself if you're really doing a better thing for the game. I'm sure you remember that nadespawning was solved fairly easily, it's not a unified rule or anything but it improved the matches and drastically lowered the drama, even though I and some others had to go through the same shit as here.


Last edited by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by cmnndr on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:14 am

I can master any weapon in less than 5 months.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:23 am

varlan wrote:I can master any weapon in less than 5 months.

And yet it's taking you over 5 years to master smg
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Geronimo on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:46 am

i still dont see an all cg team that owns everybody else. until then cg can not be objectively called OP like it was the case with sg long time before.

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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:50 am

Geronimo wrote:i still dont see an all cg team that owns everybody else. until then cg can not be objectively called OP like it was the case with sg long time before.

You haven't been playing schoolies lately Razz
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by h8me on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:14 pm

Cinc, just cause you can't kill a cg pro with smg doesn't make it op. Just because a gun doesn't take long to master doesn't make it op either. Have you caught a cg in the open with a dmg? Ever tried, really tried, mastering other weapons than smg? But, here's an idea for you, start training cg, do it for 5 months and see how you play with it, THEN make a poll. If you're not as good as Oxy is now, it just goes to show he's a better player.
On another note, I'm not comparing anything. You are so lets compare your skill vs oxy in 5 months time with cg. Start training because I have doubts that you will and that you'll get as good in that timeframe.
As for all-out cg teams, like they did with sg, I haven't seen that either and I have been watching schoolies so d/w Gero. You haven't missed anything.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:21 pm

I won't even have to train it as hard as you described. Remind yourself 5 months from now. In the meantime, there will ofc be another poll as ppl obviously want something done about this, and 5 months is a long time. Besides, mastering of a weapon shouldn't be dependent on one extra bullet :]

Other than that, can't say I've seen you at any schooly in last 3 days, but when gero returns he can have a nice match alongside a team he picks, against the current top cgs ;]
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Claymore on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:18 pm

Actually, you're funny Crapper. You just come here and flame cinc cause apparently, he cannot gives he has to train 5 month or he sucks with smg or whatever to post a poll. That kinda make me laugh, coz I just say it's op, and you were just like ignoring it.

On another note, this poll result wont tell you if the cg is op or not (depending on what ppl voted) but actually, if ppl wants to change it. And that's just totally different. For cg players, do you think voting for a rework, is a great idea for them ?

Oh and btw, if you nobody plays a weap, why do you mind if we change it?

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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by cmnndr on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:56 pm

Geronimo wrote:i still dont see an all cg team that owns everybody else. until then cg can not be objectively called OP like it was the case with sg long time before.

Oh, my long lost dead brother is back. Rejoice!
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Geronimo on Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:13 pm

@cinc: everybody can own me since i dont play so much so what good would that game do? Razz tho i would play it for fun. play top team of stars, i guarantee you that not 5 months nor 10 months with cg will do you any good.

@var: us two brothers? No <3

in the end it doesnt even matter since babo will always be smg/sniper game with taste of whining about all other weapons being under or over powered.

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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by keta on Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:34 pm

Cinc wrote:Let's talk for example about the ladder (which now imo is a total nonsense regarding anything, as the current one is based on how much time you spend on babo, with rare exceptions). [...]
Well, yes, current ladder counts shit. But brand-new-super-mega-ladder, if it ever will be finished, will not. Even more, statistics collector already modified to save complete reports, for every server, every game and every player. Having this data allows to tune rating calculation to the best possible formula. I can't even call this 'formula', because rating calculation is multi pass, with many different formulas based on many different values, including opponents rating, server on which game was played, etc, etc, etc. Even participation (have I chosen right word?) in the clan will count.

But you'll see all that tasty things not so soon Razz

P.S. And, before grand opening, I'll put the question about unified weapon settings for servers. My position is quite simple: stats from servers with 'official' settings will have an impact on player's magical rating number, but stats from other servers will not. Their stats will be collected and shown, anyway.
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Re: Chain Gun test period

Post by Cinc on Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:54 pm

Geronimo wrote:@cinc: everybody can own me since i dont play so much so what good would that game do? Razz tho i would play it for fun. play top team of stars, i guarantee you that not 5 months nor 10 months with cg will do you any good.

Funny thing you mentioned it, I just checked stars forum for their defeats. In 4 out of 8, there was a cg in the enemy def. Considering you mentioned "top team of stars", most ppl would say it's admi, uli and blubi/soda. So I wanted to know how they played and I even traced back to the ins forum for a shocking discovery. That combination only ever lost once. And guess which weapon was in enemy def? You have the right to guess 3 times, if you want I can give you a hint ;]
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