Chain Gun damage

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Test period for cg with 0.143 damage?

63% 63% 
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28% 28% 
[ 9 ]
9% 9% 
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Total Votes : 32

Chain Gun damage

Post by Cinc on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:48 pm

It's been a long time since I've made one of these, eh?

Anyway, I've watched some performances lately, both pubs and cms, and I noticed that cg is unbalanced to some extent. All could be fixed by reducing damage from 0.16 to 0.143. Now I'll explain why.

Let's first list all the advantages and disadvantages of cg.

Advantages:
- Huge damage output (1.60 damage per second, for comparison, smg is 1, dmg 1.3, sniper 0.57, zooka 0.9, ft 0.8. Photon and sg have greater damage outputs but are VERY dependent on other factors)
- Retained diagonal mobility

Disadvantages:
- Lower horizontal and vertical mobility
- Reload


Now, let's compare it with the most used weapon on rs, the smg. If I just compared the number of bullets needed to kill a babo, the difference wouldn't be that great, 10 towards 7. However the situation on the field is that you actually don't have full hp all the time. So let's compare it with some usual hp amounts:

HP |CG| SMG
1.0| 7 | 10
0.9| 6 | 9
0.8| 5 | 8
0.7| 5 | 7
0.6| 4 | 6
0.5| 4 | 5
0.4| 3 | 4
0.3| 2 | 3
0.2| 2 | 2
0.1| 1 | 1

Let's say we can easily calculate the amount of hp a player mostly has during a match. Total time spent on the field is 900-5.5*deaths (0.5 because of the time actually needed to spawn after spawn time is over), during the time you totally have (time * 0.9 - enemy_damage + 0.5 * enemy_deaths) life (0.9 because hp goes from 0.1 to 1.0, only weapon that can take less is ft but it is practically not used, and if you have 0 you're dead). Divide that again with time, and you have the number. I took 10 random people and calculated the number to be around 0.861. From the previous chart, we can see that it takes cg 6 bullets to kill that, while smg needs 9. Even though the difference remains 3 bullets, the ratio increases, from 10/7 to 9/6.

Next I measured some random 1v1 smg encounters. Average time it takes a smg to kill the enemy is a bit more than 3 seconds. Divide that by 9/6, and you come to realize cg averagely takes 2 seconds to kill the enemy. Now if you refer to the numbers I listed in cg advantages, one second is a lot. Now let's compare my suggestion of 0.143 with smg.

HP |CG| SMG
1.0| 7 | 10
0.9| 7 | 9
0.8| 6 | 8
0.7| 5 | 7
0.6| 5 | 6
0.5| 4 | 5
0.4| 3 | 4
0.3| 3 | 3
0.2| 2 | 2
0.1| 1 | 1

And for average hp of 0.861, cg takes 7 bullets while smg needs 9.

Compared to the previous table, what changed the most is the number of bullets in the 0.5 to 1.0 part. In the average case, the ratio has been reduced to 9/7, meaning that cg now needs around 2.33 seconds to kill an enemy, which makes the difference 0.67 seconds, which is a lot less than 1. Also, the 0.143 value still needs 7 bullets to kill a person with full hp, so that extreme value is maintained form the old cg.

Speaking of other advantages/disadvantages, I think they would be in perfect balance with the value I came up with. Probably the only map where cg's mobility is a big disadvantage is DM-Brutus, because it's more oriented to open horizontal and vertical passages. On most other maps, diagonal attacks have a higher impact, and cg doesn't have a disadvantage there.

Poll goes on for 7 days.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Nath on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:58 am

Change it. Jesus christ this chain gun has gone on long enough, this discussion has been said before. Chain gun on old babo was fine. But on pro client it is overpowered. I will not write a big post as i've said it all before in the previous one. But from my experience more than 90% of the babos i've spoke to have agreed that the chain gun needs damage lowering or recoil back (which I believe cannot be done). The fact is the people who use it now don't use it for the fact they like the gun, its the fact IT IS overpowered. I guarentee once/if the damage gets lowered they'll drop it faster than anything.


Last edited by Nath on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Zeckett on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:03 am

I think we all know the damage isn't the main problem here, but I see you are trying to use it as a solution. CG's main problem is the low recoil since the Pro Client came out. Since there's a low recoil compared to the older versions, now you can just stay behind a wall to use sidegun and become almost unbeatble there. I overheard someone saying that it can't be changed, so I understand what you are trying here Cinc, and I aprove. Changing the damage work out as a solution.

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by GrIfis on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:36 am

Maybe we can start with a little step, imo from 0,16 to 0,15...then test it for 1 month and revote again...



Last edited by GrIfis on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Anette on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:09 am

Since this a more serious post, don't spam here with useless jibber jabber or post memes or other pictures.

ontopic: I never played with cg and rarely play against it as not so many use it, but I am not against a test period if that is what people want.

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Devil on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:26 am

Lets test it
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Zeckett on Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:30 am

2 votes "no"

You could at least explain why so we could discuss it, because if you are right you are not really telling why.

It's more like "I use cg op and I don't want it to change so I can win more".

At least you, as cg player, should defend your position if you don't think you have advantage against the evil jealous smg players.

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Claymore on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:14 am

I don't understand why we keep having the same discussions over and over again. If you actually lower the damages to this ridiculous amount, you just gonna end up with people playing dmg instead of cg, and oh wait, you will see that it's op too and gonna make another poll.
I dunno. People complains because there are only smgs on cms, but when they are more weapons they are not liking it either.
I'm not saying that cg ain't op, it's just that you avoid the problem instead of facing it.

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Zeckett on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:23 am

Yes, you make perfect sense.

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Cinc on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:29 am

Claymore wrote:I don't understand why we keep having the same discussions over and over again. If you actually lower the damages to this ridiculous amount, you just gonna end up with people playing dmg instead of cg, and oh wait, you will see that it's op too and gonna make another poll.
I dunno. People complains because there are only smgs on cms, but when they are more weapons they are not liking it either.
I'm not saying that cg ain't op, it's just that you avoid the problem instead of facing it.

Last vote was made in august, and it was pretty even. Time passed almost half a year, people played more against cg and all that remains is seeing the vote.

dmg already had a balance poll about 2 years ago, when damage was reduced by 0.1 to make it more balanced so I don't think it will ever be re-balanced again, it's very fine the way it is.

Also like I said in many previous polls, "too many smgs" is not an argument. It's like saying "there's too many black players in nba". smg is the most balanced weapon and easiest for people to use with good results, although we know with enough practice a sniper, shotty, ft or even dmg can be more devastating. cg lacks that "enough practice" factor, much like photon, but difference with photon is that it's almost never used in cms.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Devil on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:35 pm

Claymore wrote:
I'm not saying that cg ain't op, it's just that you avoid the problem instead of facing it.

And what would "facing" the problem be like?

Clearly it's not discussing about it or trying to do something about it like now, cuz that's "avoiding" it, according to you.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Adm on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:03 pm

I approve of this topic.

ontopic - Yes!
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by h8me on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:28 pm

Zeckett wrote:2 votes "no" You could at least explain why so we could discuss it, because if you are right you are not really telling why.
I voted no. My reasons are explained in several other posts about changing weapons. I don't feel any need to repeat my thoughts on the matter.


Last edited by h8me on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Zeckett on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:43 pm

h8me wrote:
Zeckett wrote:2 votes "no" You could at least explain why so we could discuss it, because if you are right you are not really telling why.
I voted no. My reasons are explained in several other posts about changing weapons. I don't feel any need to repeat my thoughts on the matter

Fair enough. But I don't think it helps not saying why you vote "no" on some discussion that can change the gameplay of your game.

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by h8me on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:03 pm

I think he means facing the problem of cg players Devil Smile.

As you mention Z, the gameplay could change but I don't want it to, I like most of the weapons as they are (I'd like to see snip at 0.2, DMG 0.14) but apart from those I like it.
Ppl keep saying that cg is op but I just don't see it that way. That may just be me not caring if I lose or win a game or that I don't care about my kdr but it's the way I see it.
Ppl can ofc do as they have had a tendency to and say they won't play against certain weapons hehe j/k
On another note, I don't play in a clan nor do I play schooly that much so the weapon settings may matter less to me than to others.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Claymore on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:57 pm

Zeckett wrote:Yes, you make perfect sense.

Hold on. Are you actually trying to ask for answer while having that kind of behavior ?

An other thing I forgot to mention was that people aren't thinking competitively. What I mean by this is simple: Some aspect of a strategy, like picking a cg def for example are really engaging in therms of gameplay. If the cg is gets killed, and spawns out of the base, it's going to be hard to get back in as he can't use the advantage of being on defense to win his gunfights. These aspects can also be easily countered. And that lazy community ain't doing nothing about it. It's just like: "Hey I can't do shit, there must be a trick! Oh yeah, cg is op!"
Maybe it is, maybe it is not. You guys just aren't looking for any other solution. But ofc, it's always easier to say it's the other's fault.

EDIT: Not really spot on, but I just figured out that this might be a good vid for you. If you go time to waste like cinc!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fBEhhcIcg&feature=relmfu

Day9, huge starcraft e-sport guru speaking about how to get better in competitive games.


Last edited by Claymore on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Devil on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:04 pm

Claymore wrote:
Zeckett wrote:Yes, you make perfect sense.

Hold on. Are you actually trying to ask for answer while having that kind of behavior ?

An other thing I forgot to mention was that people aren't thinking competitively. What I mean by this is simple: Some aspect of a strategy, like picking a cg def for example are really engaging in therms of gameplay. If the cg is gets killed, and spawns out of the base, it's going to be hard to get back in as he can't use the advantage of being on defense to win his gunfights. These aspects can also be easily countered. And that lazy community ain't doing nothing about it. It's just like: "Hey I can't do shit, there must be a trick! Oh yeah, cg is op!"
Maybe it is, maybe it is not. You guys just aren't looking for any other solution. But ofc, it's always easier to say it's the other's fault.


And this:

"Actually it's easier to aim with the cg, even at long range. I remember the days i was playing with Nostrad, just tagging ppl and me cleaning up the kills across the map, while i was defending. Actually I'm suprised a lot ppl are speaking in here, but have never being no where near to master this weapon. Now hold on, Im not saying you can't tell your opinion if you never played this weapon, I'm just saying stop telling us some wrong fact.

For example, who the fudge cares about cg's reload ? On def ? No. On attack ? No! You just rape the guy in about 0.5 sec and then have all your time to walk.

@ keta: A weapon is overpowered when you see lame pub players just killing you easily, when they were no where near to put you half health with a decent weapon.
"

... is what you wrote last time about this.

So where do you stand on this now?
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Cinc on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:07 pm

Claymore wrote:
Zeckett wrote:Yes, you make perfect sense.

Hold on. Are you actually trying to ask for answer while having that kind of behavior ?

An other thing I forgot to mention was that people aren't thinking competitively. What I mean by this is simple: Some aspect of a strategy, like picking a cg def for example are really engaging in therms of gameplay. If the cg is gets killed, and spawns out of the base, it's going to be hard to get back in as he can't use the advantage of being on defense to win his gunfights. These aspects can also be easily countered. And that lazy community ain't doing nothing about it. It's just like: "Hey I can't do shit, there must be a trick! Oh yeah, cg is op!"
Maybe it is, maybe it is not. You guys just aren't looking for any other solution. But ofc, it's always easier to say it's the other's fault.


You're making it fairly obvious that you either didn't read or didn't understand my first post. cg will still be good enough for same defensive tactics. Bullets needed to kill a full babo remain the same. The difference is that the cg won't be much of a deciding factor for simply spamming around, or kill easily in 2v1 situations because it kills low people too fast. First post summarizes perfectly why cg is OP compared to smg. I even did a whole shitload of research before finding the right number. All you have backing up your opinion is, and I rephrase your exact words: "most people die easily against cg because they are too dumb to find a way to kill it. cg is not op". I'd reconsider my argument if I was you.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Claymore on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:09 pm

Yeah at this time I was really convinced that I was right. Until I got countered by people who put a bit of time on this game.

@Cinc: Yup didn't take time to read, my bad. But I must say I'm not a super fan of your theories in general...

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by raven on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:52 pm

Claymore wrote:Yeah at this time I was really convinced that I was right. Until I got countered by people who put a bit of time on this game.

"this time" as in when you played it seemed op and now that you don't you think this is okay?

Damn

On Topic: It definitly should be changed, we see bad players turn good with cg like from night to day and this is just wrong.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Cinc on Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:24 pm

Claymore wrote:EDIT: Not really spot on, but I just figured out that this might be a good vid for you. If you go time to waste like cinc!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1fBEhhcIcg&feature=relmfu

Day9, huge starcraft e-sport guru speaking about how to get better in competitive games.

Would be all valid and fine if you understood the point of the video correctly. The guy never says "no system is flawed", he says "a good system is not flawed". Babo system is very flawed. Spawnnades, spawnflames, different settings on different servers etc. The very cg is bugged, as it has no recoil diagonally but has vertically and horizontally. Therefore your core argument falls into water. Good try tho.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Anette on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:11 pm

I don't understand how this turned into bashing claymore just cause he disagrees with the change. Either post something constructive or don't post at all. It's not that hard to just not create a post.
So keep the tone, and the stay on topic, so far vast majority want to test it so just cause claymore doesn't agree shouldn't be that big a deal to the ones who want to change it.

I deleted 2 topics and edited one.

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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Nath on Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:22 am

Votes speak for themself, no need to take it out on Claymore, he knows hes a cock anyway. clown But Clay, cg is overpowered some people may believe that as its never been updated so doesnt need to be touched, that was until pro client came out and got rid of kick. And kick CANNOT be put back on so damage is the only reasonable step. You also speak about competition and developing to beat the cg, as is done in other games. But all other games get updates and nerfs if they believe the community is not happy is guns are overpowered or whatever. One of the biggest games in the world Call of Duty has updates almost every week. You should know this, MW3 and BF3 have had updates pretty much every week since release for countless weapons to make them more competitive and fair. As the majority of the community believed this action needed to be taken.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Adm on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:25 am

Tried your suggested damage value in some schoolies today (cause waiting for the test period is too mainstream), it didn't seem to make much difference (imo)
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Re: Chain Gun damage

Post by Nath on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:35 am

Adm wrote:Tried your suggested damage value in some schoolies today (cause waiting for the test period is too mainstream), it didn't seem to make much difference (imo)
+1 as i played alot with you earlier. Its maybe a small amount weaker in the open but on gunside its pretty much the same. So cg lovers - Relax Kurwa.
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Re: Chain Gun damage

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