THE RULES

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THE RULES

Post by FireBall on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:31 pm

K so here we go, since some of you have voice your concerns regarding some of the rules, it would be a good idea to see what some people can come up with. Just bare in mind a few things. Any off-topic post will obviously be removed. Please use arguments to back up your point of view, and counterarguments with their intended purpose. Also if a con/pro argument is made regarding a rule you are also talking about, you cannot ignore it (to avoid the usual methods of "argumentation"). We don't talk about people here, we talk about rules. To anyone who doesn't know what I am talking about: http://eurobabo.forumieren.eu/t1589-kingj-s-standouthost-germany-and-uk

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Re: THE RULES

Post by Anette on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:23 am

Since I asked for rules to be up fordebate I will ofc say my opinion on some of them ^^

1. I don't think a mute on pub should make you muted on rs automaticly, because like varlan pointed out, it makes it pretty much impossible to play cms, and I dont think it should be treated same. I just think it's too big a punishment for like spamming "haha" on pub. If it is for racism or something like that, I do however find it fair (Im still not sure what happened in varlans case tbh)
2. If you get banned for flame spawning on dm, I don't think you should get banned on all other servers, as it is only on dm that flamespawning is "illegal"
2. I do think there should be room for some banter, I know admins view differently what is allowed and what is not, but to some degree it should be allowed. I had one time where I played with different name, I made a comment to uli, "flame bastard" and got immediately warned by an admin. I think that is just too extreme, as uli knows me, he said "Argh.." he didn't complain about it.
I know it is difficult so see when ppl know each other but the fact that you can just mute without warning, at the first thing you see, just seems too extreme to me.

I would like to add a rule that you aren't allowed to make up your own rules on servers to get your way. (just to be clear, this isn't aimed at any of the admins but at people, who create rules towards newcomers about when you are allowed to vote for changemap, and so on, just to get their way)


Last edited by Anette on Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: THE RULES

Post by FireBall on Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:49 am

Fair enough.

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Re: THE RULES

Post by Anette on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:09 pm

good answer, glad I made the post lol xD

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Re: THE RULES

Post by memento on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:38 pm

I would be more benevolent with warnings towards random ppl on pubs who dont know the rules and on the other hand stricter to ppl on squads.
If I was a new player, I wouldnt see any reason to obey some made up rules on unofficial fanmade forum, not to mention these rules are in a mess of shmillion sticky topics this forum has, not even in a topic with forum rules, but in a topic with admin lists. To make it even better, it's in a part of the forum that is invisible for newcomers xD
I would make a server welcome message "game rules - eurobabo.forumieren.eu" and on the top of the forum make 1 section with 1 topic with the rules.

Muting everywhere seems fair, ppl will at least learn how to behave Cool , the mutes dont have to last long. I can see that ppl are surprised with their mutes now, cuz admins have never done anything about it and now they suddenly do. Foul language is bannable everywhere and thats how it should be.

IMO only keta and crapper know how to do the job, but if fireball is a ruthless, but fair admin, he could join their ranks, ergo a system with main admin and his water carriers seems good enough, as long as we have other trustworthy ppl who can take him down if he goes nuts ( which we have - other global admins ).

IMO#2
Rules and banning should NOT be a matter of public poll, only the admin(s) should decide that, whilst changing game settings (weapon damages, ...) should be agreed on by all - just likes its now. Thats for game developers, not for admins, I believe. Since developers dont work anymore, we all need to put our heads together and using common sense agree on the best option. But again, except for the fact, that only about 20-30 forum ppl have been deciding about the settings, I dont see any problem in the current system.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by keta on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:52 pm

Anette wrote:1. I don't think a mute on pub should make you muted on rs automaticly
Fair enough, because RS is almost another world. But having player muted on all servers of the same kind is fair enough, too. If player insults or spam on one server, he will do that everywhere. Btw, just as side note, I was very surprised with the fact that someone uses game chan to communicate with teammates in CMs. Smart people use TeamSpeak/Ventrillo/Skype.

Anette wrote:2. If you get banned for flame spawning on dm, I don't think you should get banned on all other servers, as it is only on dm that flamespawning is "illegal"
As I mentioned earlier, in a dictatorial Russia, banlists are shared between public servers. You even don't need to go through servers to apply ban, it's enough to do that on single server. I'm sure (and my point of view is proven by facts) that if someone act like an asshole on DM, he will act so on CTF, but probably in another way. I've never seen player who plays unfair on DM, but becoming an angel on CTF and so on. And I should say, after making shared banlists, people became much more careful with what they do. Many were surprised that the rules exist at all.

It's all my dictator's personal opinion and may be effectively ignored.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by GrenD on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:54 pm

keta wrote:

Discussion with keta moved to PM Smile

On topic, I'm all for muting and banning across the board on public servers. If people are jerks they don't get to play, that simple. Contrary to what you might think from my previous involvement in the ongoing discussions, I've always been for a stricter ban policy. Just ask Anette about how I've told her in the past people should be banned left and right. Wink (she's wise enough not to listen of course)

Memento also made a reaaaaaaaaally good point about global admins being there in case of emergency. Actually, everything in there was a voice of reason. I withdraw all objections Smile


Last edited by GrenD on Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:24 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: THE RULES

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:44 am

I reluctantly agree with meme. Although I don't get one thing:

memento wrote:Rules and banning should NOT be a matter of public poll, only the admin(s) should decide that

I hope with this you're not implying that people wouldn't have the right to complain about their punishment, because as we've seen, there's several cases where an admin was wrong.

*edit* stop going off topic /Anette
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Geronimo on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:53 am

imo politics about banning and muting:

1. dont ban/mute easily and quickly. admins job isnt only to enforce rule but to talk to people, to try to communicate to them, see why are they doing what they are doing and in any way possible make them change their behavior. imo all this fuss is about some admins not understanding that part of their job is giving therapy to others. shock therapy (read: ban/mute) comes as a last resort. i am sure you think you are doing this already but maybe you should broaden patience. if you dont understand this, dont be admin.

2. when you ban/mute it should be hard and painful - on all servers. following the idea from 1. if you get to ban/mute it is sign that its pretty serious now and ban/mute should make a concrete point. the degree of when is mute, when is ban and how long each will last is for each admin to judge according to situation.

3. give everybody chance to change.

now, from what i saw 2. and 3. is already present in current admin policy. what i think some of admins lack is the personal approach with lots of patience. it is true that an admin has to be fair and equal to everybody in applying the rules but that doesnt mean the rules have to be forced with an iron hand. you could also be fair and equal to everybody in a way that you talk and put effort into the situation like you would do when you have a friend in need. yet this is the harder road to take so i understand why its not now the road of some admins but if you do not see your self in this road eventually you are not fit to be admin.

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Re: THE RULES

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:14 am

Geronimo wrote:...

I agree with 1. and 3. but not with 2., although I see where you're getting the idea from: rs bans won't make any difference for pub players and rs players should by default be more understanding towards the rules so if they cannot be bartered with - remove them.

The problem with that? Inconsistency in following 1. and 3. It's fairly obvious that those are ideal points, but we know ideal cannot be achieved, and 2. is a direct consequence of both 1. and 3., therefore without 1. and 3. being perfectly achieved, 2. cannot be done. So, I'm still for separate punishments on rs and pubs.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Nova on Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:31 am

Cinc wrote:So, I'm still for separate punishments on rs and pubs.

Why should it be separated? If a so-called "pro player" gets banned in public he wont behave differently in rs. Also we expect rs-players to know the rules so they should follow them in public as well. So it's only fair to mute/ban/remove this player from rs even if the incident was in pubic servers.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:06 am

Nova wrote:
Cinc wrote:So, I'm still for separate punishments on rs and pubs.

Why should it be separated? If a so-called "pro player" gets banned in public he wont behave differently in rs. Also we expect rs-players to know the rules so they should follow them in public as well. So it's only fair to mute/ban/remove this player from rs even if the incident was in pubic servers.

Like I said, there is bias present among admins and therefore they might nitpick someone's behavior on pubs just to have him punished everywhere.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Nova on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:37 am

Why should an admin want this?
Also therefore are the rules to have straight guidelines what should be concerned banable/kickable/mutable. If everyone applies to these rules there is no chance in getting bias (even if I doubt, they exist) involved.
This is what we should discuss to avoid future drama.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Geronimo on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:33 am

cinc, we should spend energy into making things ideal and not resign and patch things around in circles. for ex. if an admin is bias like you said then that is the problem, not mute/ban on all servers. focus on right things.

and from my experience, things can get pretty close to ideal, enough to make things work like they should work.

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Re: THE RULES

Post by Cinc on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:01 am

Geronimo wrote:cinc, we should spend energy into making things ideal and not resign and patch things around in circles. for ex. if an admin is bias like you said then that is the problem, not mute/ban on all servers. focus on right things.

and from my experience, things can get pretty close to ideal, enough to make things work like they should work.

In this case that would be by re-selecting some admins. Which apparently isn't going to happen, so we'll have to focus on the 2nd most important problem, which is separating rs and pub banlists/mutelists.

Of course, admin(s) that I'm thinking of can go and start proving me wrong right away. I'm open to changes in my way of thinking about this.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Negative on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:53 am

I think ppl are getting muted and banned too easily. Like Gero said, admins should take it easy and not mute right away. Babo starts to get emptier and emptier everyday, and with this strict measures ppl will stop playing at all soon enough. Just saying

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Re: THE RULES

Post by Nath on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:01 pm

Negative wrote:...
Indeed.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Devil on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:20 pm

As hard as we might try we cannot create a system where admins follow the rules by the book and ban/mute everyone that gets out of line. The reason for this is precisely because we are a small community and admins are part of the players sharing the same servers/chats/forums/cms with everyone else.
Admins are not a separate entity with higher understanding of the human condition and we're not bots.

It's natural that because of this a feeling of bonding and comfort has been created between players - players and admin - players.

I think that attempting to break this bond will result in our already small community getting smaller and I've shared my point of view on this countless times (especially regarding the letting new players on Rs rules, but that's offtopic).

This is not a time to enforce and tighten the rules, but rather a time to be more understanding as a community (not talking just about admins here), and as such see it grow and not fall apart because of petty discussions and selfish acts.

Pira, Fost, Cinc, Var - I've seen all of you acting inapproprietly at times, and perhaps this time your ban/mute wasn't called for, but... to put it bluntly "shit accumulates". These bans and mutes won't last forever and you know that, so perhaps instead of complaining about it you will see what wrong you've done in your actions, just as admins are reflecting on their harsh or rushed actions at times and trying to fix that by making clearer rules.

But lets stop trying to see how we can go around the rules, or how we can enforce them 'till the point of no more freedom. We're all mature here and I think we're all here for the same reason: to have fun and feel like a part of this community. If you're not here for that, then you will always be treated as an outsider because that is exactly what your actions will reflect.

I believe that If everyone would be a BIT more patient, the whole result would be noticeable.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Nova on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:57 pm

Well said.

Only problem was in the beginning that people didn't accept their mute/ban/removal and start making drama instead of accepting their faults. So they started taking it personal and start smth like a hate war. That's the only reason the idea with newer and stricter rules came up. It's intend was to have better guidelines since some people simply didn't accept the actions taken against them by admins thought they were all justified. Maybe not perfectly executed but still legitimate.

So just stop this drama for now, wait for ur un-/ban/mute/removal and stay clean after that. Like it used to be.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by Tof67 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:12 pm

Hi all and a big kiss for all girls,


I think that it shall be simpler to make ineffective flame on respawn, designers of games should solve this problem or not ?

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Re: THE RULES

Post by keta on Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:26 am

Tof67 wrote:I think that it shall be simpler to make ineffective flame on respawn, designers of games should solve this problem or not ?
It's almost impossible without sources (but I'll keep trying). Only original developers has them. Original developers will not help, as they already said many times.
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Re: THE RULES

Post by memento on Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:10 am

Cinc wrote: I reluctantly agree with meme. Although I don't get one thing:

memento wrote:Rules and banning should NOT be a matter of public poll, only the admin(s) should decide that

I hope with this you're not implying that people wouldn't have the right to complain about their punishment, because as we've seen, there's several cases where an admin was wrong.

*edit* stop going off topic /Anette

No no no ofc not, Im for complaining of any form. I meant that admins should do the paperwork, decide on banning rules and ban ppl. Ppl should ofc speak up and start a public discussion when they feel there has been some UNFAIRNESS and if their evidence proves them right, that should force the admin to change his decision.

Other thing is, Im not feeling very comfortable with these polls, as only about 10 votes might be enough to win a poll and if you count the number of accounts that belong to banned (for more serious stuff) and stupid ppl, these few smegheads could turn all polls in their favour and affect gaming experience of billions potential players lookhowcooliam


Last edited by memento on Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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