Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

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Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:39 pm

After observing the current behaviour of clans towards accepting a ladder match instead of playing a cm, the following change to ladder rules will be done shortly:

A team positioned on a certain rank on the ladder has to accept all ladder game challenges from teams ranked below in the ELO rating. This means that if there is an agreement to play a cm and the lower ranked team decide they want the match to be a ladder match the higher ranked team cannot refuse to play such. The challenge must happen before the start of the game.

Exceptions:
- One or many members of the challenged team have considerate LAG, FPS or other visible problems with playing the game as a fully able player.
- One or many members of the challenged clan are on tryout.

When this rule applies:
- Only when a cm is already going to happen, this means this rule doesnt work if you challenge a team to a ladder match and they dont even want to play or have enough players ready.

How do you know the rule has been broken?
- A clan brakes the rules if it refuses to play a ladder match or rather any match at all with a team, with which they already wanted to play and the decision was made on the base of the challenge.-
- The rule is also broken if the challenged team searches for another oponent with whom it plays another normal or ladder match after being first invited for a match by the challenging team and it is obvious they changed they did this, because they didnt want to play a ladder match

The above part is very subjective as there is no single rule which decides if a team broke the rules or not. Such behaviour should be reported by anyone who vitnesses it to the ladder team (Cyber and Me atm. but would be happy to take new volunteers) and it is the decision of the ladder team, if the rules were broken or not.

Why do this?
Because the ladder was initially made to strengten competitiveness and the level of matches for greater joy of the community. Since nearly every team for example refuses to play a ladder match against NbZ just out of fear from loosing a few ELO points, we feel that our team is treated unfairly and cannot profit from the very idea of what we made. If we run a ladder, we want to play on it!

Why this is fair?
The concept i have made is also as to protect weak teams from being abused, meaning its not possible for a strong team to milk a weak team for ELO points, which are easily gained. This way it is for the weak teams to decide when they feel strong enough to compete with the strong ones and there is no pressure on them. However if youre on a good rank, you need to show the world you deserve it and that your points are well earned. Actually this is what a ladder is about. No? Showing the relative strentgh of clans. So be honest to yourself! If you feel that the position you are currently on is the right for you that implies that you are better than anyone under you so you can beat them!! This means you shouldnt fear playing anyone under you Wink

Last Words to the COmmunity:
Guys (and ladies) man up. Loosing isnt as bad as you imagine it. This is about everyone having fun, lets not be morons, lets let everyone play in our sandbox. I wish that in the future this rule will be no more or use and forgotten, since there will be no problems with playing a ladder game, no matter what the result might be.

All parts of the above are open for discussion.

Greetings

Ladder Team (Push!)


EDIT:
Penalties for clans who brake the rules - In first place i hope this will just not happen, because personally i dont have any urgent need to be mean to anyone. However as a deterrent we could decide on points loss in the ELO rating or expellment from the ladder if a seriously big problem should arise. My idea for now is the team, which breaks the rules is going to loose the amount of points it would have if it would have lost to the team, which challenged it, however the challenging team will not gain anything as to profit from the situation.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by cnik on Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:37 am

I feel like this is Nbz oriented rule Wink
Anyway, same problem (not willing to play ladder games) was at the beggining of first ladder. Noone wanted to take a risk of loosing a game, position on ladder etc. But after some time everyone realised that playing cms is boring, don't give you anything and everyone switched to ladder games - playing for something is always cooler.
So, instead of making ghost rules give teams some time, tell them to play ladder games over and over and with time it will be ok.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Dysproz on Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:12 am

+1 cnik.. this new rules wil make only chaos IMO.. and problems with interpretation when challenged team really can't play or doesnt want to(stuff with lags and fps)..who will be judge this?
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Nova on Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:40 pm

cnik wrote:I feel like this is Nbz oriented rule Wink

Yeah, could be - But it's still true that everyone disagree on playn ladder with us..
So there's no point if everyone just says "only cm"
Thats the point (ofc u're right that ladder needs some time.. but it's already going for 1 month so.. )
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:48 am

cnik wrote:I feel like this is Nbz oriented rule Wink

Well seems like youre not having that much of a problem getting a ladder game (5:2). And its not like we did try less or were on the ladder for a smaller amount of time. Ofc its a NbZ oriented rule, because were being discriminated! This is a bit like saying that just because black people are slaves and they propose equality themselves its egoistic.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by cnik on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:19 am

So the conclusion is that I'm racist scratch
Btw. I don't like playing at wednesday between 17:03-19:32, can we add a tiny little rule, pls.
Razz

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Ya on Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:12 am

FLAME POST



Edited by Push
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Cyber on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:09 am

FLAME POST


Edited by Push
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:19 am

Since what i did in this topic is propose a way of everyone being equalised in the ladder and noone discriminated (i didnt say by you cnik, just did like your remark) and since what Yao and Cyb did was trying to settle their personal dispute here, which doesnt really have anything to do with this topic i decided to delete both posts as to preserve the original intention of the discussion. You both can settle your personal dispute on pubs or msn.

To Cnik: Dont retard the subject and make fun of it. If it didnt really bother us, i wouldnt have had written the post in first place. So until things change by itself i propose we install the new rule, since its CLEAR, and FAIR and since me and cyb run the ladder right now i guess its us who will decide over such disputes. As i said before, if you want to join the ladder team, your free to do so, so dont come here with stuff like why should only NbZs decide...

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Ya on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:29 am

Pushkin wrote:Since what i did in this topic is propose a way of everyone being equalised in the ladder and noone discriminated (i didnt say by you cnik, just did like your remark) and since what Yao and Cyb did was trying to settle their personal dispute here, which doesnt really have anything to do with this topic i decided to delete both posts as to preserve the original intention of the discussion. You both can settle your personal dispute on pubs or msn.

To Cnik: Dont retard the subject and make fun of it. If it didnt really bother us, i wouldnt have had written the post in first place. So until things change by itself i propose we install the new rule, since its CLEAR, and FAIR and since me and cyb run the ladder right now i guess its us who will decide over such disputes. As i said before, if you want to join the ladder team, your free to do so, so dont come here with stuff like why should only NbZs decide...

No I was just mentionning a fact to point out that THERE IS clans asking NbZ for ladder.
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:35 am

Ok, thank you and uC for wanting to ladder NbZ, im pretty sure our clans will arrange a match soonish and that will show the other clans, thats it doesnt hurt (that much) to ladder NbZ.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by pukebag on Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:20 pm

lol who decided that? push & cyber? arnt we a community ? i mean since 3 years i play this game i wanna be abble to refuse a ladder if i dont want to play it, and i will ! and its not very hard to make me lag if u want a proof lol, just run a DL or smth everyone know this, like dys said it will complicate all..

we are a community and since there's no votes or smth ill not consider this rule.Because i dont want to discriminate my team, ill just delete my name from the list, but i hope u guys will think again about this, and understand once for all u cannot decide 2 guys for a whole comunity...

(edit : i cant edit charon's post so please any admin or char if u read this delete my name.)
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by memento on Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:29 pm

lol!

Dj vu
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:30 pm

FLAME POST


EDITED by Push


PS: just wanted to write it first


Last edited by Pushkin on Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Dysproz on Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:31 am

Push..you delete cyber and Yao's posts and few post later you insult as well.. Just make voting and we will see.. If your proposition will be accepted than we will think about later details.. Agree?
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Kai on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 am

I don't care about rules but ppl have the right to reject a ladder ... If I don't want to play ladder, I won't play it ...

That's all for me
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Devil on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:50 am

Take it easy Push. Making things roll is never easy, but forcing it is never going to work.
If this is to be applied, then everyone, or at least the majority of the teams that are signed-up for the ladder have to vote and accept it.
I know you and Cyb made this ladder to help the community and consequently provide some competition, which is great, but give it some time or you might make something else arise. Wink

Oh and also, don't start insulting because no one here insulted you.
Puke, don't rush man, nothing is decided yet, besides, you're not allowed to withdraw from the tournament :PP
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:05 am

Kai wrote:I don't care about rules but ppl have the right to reject a ladder ... If I don't want to play ladder, I won't play it ...

That's all for me


you do have the right to reject a cm still, what you loose is the right to play a cm instead of a ladder with the same team, if there is no reason for that. Noone can take your right to leave the computer turned off and go play some cool ball game with the other kids outside, Kai Smile

And there will be no voting, because i already know the result, why would you vote for a rule that takes some of your freedom, if youre not being discriminated Wink This works on a conversation basis, we put on the rule, unless we hear some good argument, why we shouldnt, or why its not fair.

Until now your arguments were:
- Why should Push and Cyb decide for everyone (we dont, so this is no argument as well as it doesnt really concern the problematic of ladder match rejections)
- give it some time (did already, wasting more time every day, up until now with no results)
- I have the right to do what i want (not true, if you join a ladder you obey the ladder rules and if the ladder rules will be you cant reject a ladder match if youre higher ranked and dont have a good excuse, then this means you have to do that or you get penalised.)


Any other good reason why this rule shouldnt be accepted?
Try to think about why it wouldnt be fair and to whom, because that is how you can convince people, that its not a good rule. Stop whining about your civil rights, as said before you will always have the right to leave your pc shut down.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Cinc on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:52 am

If you wanted this rule to pass you simply should've said it before the ladder started. You can't force a rule without even discussing about it. I mean, even after all this rejection you acted like "f*** you all, nbz started this so everyone will do what nbz wants". You forget that nbz is not the only clan in this ladder, and it kinda is your fault that nobody wants a match with you because of your "Just give us the points and the crown" attitude.
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:25 am

Cinc wrote:If you wanted this rule to pass you simply should've said it before the ladder started.

If we would have known that you shit your pants every time we ask for a ladder game, we would have.


You can't force a rule without even discussing about it.

Have you even read one of my posts, how many times again, we didnt force it yet, we discuss it. No, we dont do polls, because polls dont represent opinions. Yes we do have a debate and if even one of you writes down one simple argument why this is not a good rule i will reconsider it.


I mean, even after all this rejection you acted like "f*** you all, nbz started this so everyone will do what nbz wants".

We didnt, as said we do respect others opinions and want a fair game. Since the game isnt fair right now, we try to find a way of making it fair again. You know, all of you just have the problem, because its us who do the ladder and us who cnt get one ladder game, because everyone is scared to play us. If it was two separate clans, noone would have cared. So please stop pretending that we are bending rules as to aid us in any way. Because having a right to play on the ladder should be maintained for all clans that join. Right?

I think your problem is that you didnt even bother to read my post. This is what pisses me off most. Because we never wrote anything like: If NbZ asks for ladder, you have to play a ladder game with them or you get -100 points. What we proposed was that in case you have your team with all normal members under normal conditions and we want to play a ladder game, you dont just say, no just cm, and only if you are higher ranked than us, and only if you want to play a game with us in first place. Another case is if we ask for a ladder game, you reject and play someone else just minutes after. How is that supposed to be fair? And all of this has happened manz times already, but it doesnt bother you, because its not your clan and youre just being ignorant to whatever problems other can have.


You forget that nbz is not the only clan in this ladder, and it kinda is your fault that nobody wants a match with you because of your "Just give us the points and the crown" attitude.

For this youve landed on my official hate list. No further comment.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:40 am

And besides, any of you out there could have already 10 times gathered 3 people, played on ladder match with nbz and proved me wrong saying, why do you nead this stupid rule if you played a ladder match 15 minutes ago, but you didnt, so this just proves my point.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Martz on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:09 am

Hey guys!
imo :
if you join a ladder you obey the ladder rules and if the ladder rules will be you cant reject a ladder match if youre higher ranked and dont have a good excuse, then this means you have to do that or you get penalised.)

I think its not a good idea to institute a rule who force the team to play ladder match. It's OUR right to choose. Whatever the ranking dude Very Happy

When you say that when you join the ladder, you obey to the ladder rules, alright! But when my team and me registered, i have never seen this rule anywhere Razz
So, you can't set up a rule by yourself, you got to propose it to the community, right?
Atm, I do not see much opinions going to your way...

if we ask for a ladder game, you reject and play someone else just minutes after
One more time, it's the right to any team to play against they want, imo.

because everyone is scared to play us
don't take your dreams for reality duuude Laughing

That's all for me.

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Dysproz on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:02 pm

Well..my point puch wasn't nbz reign in creating of rules..or "we do what we want"..my point ws that rule will just complicate many things..as puke noticed it's not hard to make a lag to yourself(just turn some torrent on)... you can proof lag with ping..but how you proof that someone have low fps? It will jsut cause suspicious atmosphere and acusations of unfair play..we will need to have further judges..rules..judges..rules... and in the end ladder will not be competetive cause everyone will jsut lose in the web of rules and restrictions..
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Pushkin on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:05 pm

I agree that this is true dysp. Besides, fx played NbZ today and nearly won, so that shows that its nothing special to play against NbZ, that might get things going, thanks guys, appreciate it! I think we can drop the subject of this rule for now, because obviously it would create more bad than good...

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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

Post by Nova on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:19 pm

DRAMA FTW
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Re: Ladder Match Rejection / Change in Rules

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